Monday, April 06, 2009

Rep. Geoff Simpson Mocks God, the Bible and Christianity

Rep. Geoff Simpson has mocked God, the Bible and the Christian faith of a constituent from his district. His remarks not only assault God and the Bible, but are verbally abusive to his constituent.

Why? Because she respectfully ask her Representative to vote no on SB 5688.

Simpson, who represents the 47th district, which covers the Covington-Black Diamond area, responded in such a way that should disgrace his party and cause them to apologize and remove him from elected office. Simpson has a right to believe what he wants---he does not have the right to treat citizens whom he represents as he has. I am told he has responded in a similar way to others in his district.

Even homosexual activists should push back on this one--but they won't, because many of them agree with him.

His written response begins with the following, then goes dramatically down hill from there:

"What is it in the bible that leads you to believe stopping gay marriage should top your political priority list? Was there some extra special **emphasis **, italics, bold or bold italics in your bible that called your attention to one aspect of god's law to be the thing you should contact your political representative about? Or did God himself point you to gay marriage as the issue that should be your tip-top, number one political concern."

As he continues he mocks everything from George W. Bush to The Old Testament to this ladies' Christian faith. He also clearly discriminates against her because of those beliefs.

Please don't tell me that the gay movement is just about being happy and rights and benefits. There is a very dark side to the homosexual movement. It is spiritual, rebellious and it runs deep. This affirms just how deeply held their hatred is toward biblical Christianity and our biblical moral beliefs.

I have included Representative Geoff Simpson's response in full. Please read it. May your eyes be opened. I have also included a response to Simpson from a Christian attorney.

Simpson's Response:

From: Simpson, Rep. Geoff [mailto:Simpson.Geoff@leg.wa.gov]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:11 PMTo:

Subject: RE: Say NO to same sex marriage SB5688

Barbara –

What is it in the bible that leads you to believe stopping gay marriage should top your political priority list? Was there some extra-special **emphasis**, italics, bold or bold italics in your bible that called your attention to one aspect of god's law to be the thing you should contact your elected representative about? Or did God himself point you to gay marriage as the issue that should be your tip-top, number one political concern?

Jesus opposed the death penalty, saying "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" - yet George W. Bush set an execution record when he was governor of Texas, and boasted of it. I don't recall ever getting a message from you opposing the death penalty as Christ did.

Why is your "Christian" political activism concentrated against gay marriage instead of against the death penalty?

  • In the interest enforcing the laws of the bible with regard to marriage, let's not forget that;
    It's ok for marriage to consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3: 2-5)
  • Marriage does not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives.(11Sam 5:13; 1Kings 11:3; 11Chron 11:21)
  • A marriage is considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut. 22: 13-21)
  • Marriage between a believer and a non-believer is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25: 1-9; Ezra 9:12, Neh 10:30)
  • Since marriage is for life, nothing in the scriptures permits divorce.( Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
  • If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and by otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

Finally, I need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws contained in the bible and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:17-21 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Geoff

_________________

Open Letter to Representative Geoff Simpson

Re: Same-sex marriage in Biblical context
By Stephen Pidgeon
April 2, 2009

Dear Representative Simpson:

Grace and peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ, our Emmanuel, the propitiation for our sins, our Holy Savior and ultimately, He who will come to judge the living and the dead.

It is written that “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10. Homosexuality is not the only sin in the world – there are many others, including the failure of faith. As it is written: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8.

You ask the question, “What is it in the bible that leads you to believe stopping gay marriage should top your political priority list?”

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

Some have argued that the original Greek did not make reference to “homosexuals” but rather to “catamites.” “Catamites” are the younger partners in sexual relationships between two males, typically between an older man and an adolescent youth. The term “catamite” never referred to heterosexuals.

Okay, so we have scriptural evidence that those who practice fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, theft, covetousness, alcoholism, verbal abuse, or extortion will not see the kingdom of God. This includes a large group of people, all of whom should repent and be saved.

But this really is not the issue. The issue is the remaking of American culture to accommodate a distinct minority.

Here is the argument:

Civil society is predicated upon the ethics practiced by the members thereof. In homogenous societies, these ethics are passed from generation to generation. The actual practice of these ethics is what we call morality – or the general condition of the mores of a social order.

The state, in all of its enforceable laws, enforces morality. The state will place a boundary around mores which violate the ethics of the community as those ethics are codified in law. There is no criminal law that does not enforce morality, or that does not reflect an ethic of society.

Our society has exploded into heterogeneity, most notable in the 1960s. Now, we are a culturally divided people (some say hopelessly divided).

“But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.” Matthew 12:25.

Marriage is the very center of our cultural experience. A society is defined by its marriage practices. Some cultures have pre-arranged marriages, but in the west and in particular in the United States, we have marriages based upon the election of the parties.

Nonetheless, marriage has always been practiced in this country as the spiritual union between one man and one woman. This was the morality of the culture when this nation was founded, and is being challenged only now, hundreds of years later.

From the expectation that the morality of marriage would remain constant, generations have given their vows before God to remain faithful, woman to man, and man to woman, that a woman might risk bearing a child on the condition that the man remain to provide for the child. Marriage, before contraception, was a critical component of survival, and the family that resulted from the marriage of one man and one woman was the center stone of our culture, our society, our government, our survival, our prosperity, and most importantly, our homage to our Creator.

Contraception supposedly liberated our society from the necessity of marriage, and we can see how well that has worked. As a society, we have aborted 50 million Americans, and prevented the births of at least that amount through contraception. Many women have died from breast cancer as a result of the “pill”; other women have died from the “morning after” pill, and many tens of thousands of American women have suffered greatly in their lives as a result of the emotional burden and the trauma associated with abortion.

Contraception led to no-fault divorce, which has now given birth to same-sex marriage that will give birth to polygamous marriages that will give license to pedophilia, incest, bestiality, and so forth. Same-sex marriage is merely a gate of entry.

However, as a policy, same-sex marriage destroys the morality – the centuries-old cultural practice - of North American residents who call themselves “American” because it alters the fundamental expectation. No longer is marriage about the proposition of faithfulness and provision from a man whose barbaric impulses would otherwise be spent on unbridled hedonism in exchange for a sexual commitment from a woman, who, should she yield, would most certainly end up with children.

Same-sex marriage alters our homage to our Creator according to His infinite wisdom to reduce the marital relationship from the Holy pact to simply the “choice” of any grouping of people, who “want” to be married.
Most importantly, the state has seen fit to overrule scripture as to what is marriage.

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” Matthew 19:4-6.

The state’s assertion that it has the authority to overrule God’s ordination is, simply put, fascism. Mussolini, the founder of modern fascism, explained fascism simply as “the state over all.” That of course, included God. Holy Scripture will not dictate our social order, because we are now going to exercise the right to place the state over the authority of God.

That is what the fuss is all about.

You ask whether “God himself point you to gay marriage as the issue that should be your tip-top, number one political concern?”

For me, this is not the tip-top, number one political concern: overturning no-fault divorce is my tip-top concern, but that’s just me. The death penalty is off-point, so I won’t address your concern or lobbying effort as to this issue. Let’s review your other biblical questions:

You have said: In the interest enforcing the laws of the bible with regard to marriage, let's not forget that;

It's ok for marriage to consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3: 2-5)

These citations merely reflect that certain persons in biblical history were polygamous (Jacob, for instance, the father of the twelve tribes of Israel). You will note that none of the people referenced here had homosexual or catamite relationships.

Marriage does not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives.(11Sam 5:13; 1Kings 11:3; 11Chron 11:21)

While this is true, it is also true that the keeping of concubines worked substantial tragedy as a result.

A marriage is considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut. 22: 13-21)

This law was set forth as a construct within the Israelite homogeneous culture. If you wanted to practice something else, feel free, but you would be required to do it within some other nation or tribe.

Marriage between a believer and a non-believer is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25: 1-9; Ezra 9:12, Neh 10:30)

This law was even more draconian than you describe. Ezra did not allow for any ethnic or racial diversity whatsoever. Again, you are discussing a set of laws designed to keep Israel as a set apart, Holy people. If you wanted to practice something else, feel free, but you would be required to do it within some other nation or tribe.

Since marriage is for life, nothing in the scriptures permits divorce.( Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

This is false. Divorce is expressly permitted on the ground of sexual immorality.

“Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.” Matthew 5:31.32.

The Mosaic law permitted divorce on the ground of uncleanness:

“When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house.” Deuteronomy 24:1.

God Himself executed a divorce on the basis of harlotry:

“The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;” Jeremiah 3:6-8. (This entire chapter is an excellent read).

If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and by otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

Again, you are speaking about laws directed to the homogeneous nation of Israel.
You have then gone on to seek advice as to specific Old Testament laws. Let me see if I can help.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

This sacrifice was completed with Christ’s death on the cross, which tore the veil in the temple in two and ended sacrifice.

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

This argument is as old as the hills and twice as dusty. First, the term “slave” in the original Hebrew was interchangeable with the term “servant”. This describes primarily an employment relationship (journeyman/apprenticeship) that was practiced during this era, not the kind of slavery practiced, say, in China, where people are arrested for practicing “Falon Gong” and are incarcerated in slave camps to make cheap goods for American consumption. You will notice that the so-called “slave” arrangements are merely bond-servant contracts that expire at the end of six years, and the context of the “selling” of a daughter then goes on to discuss what happens if the betrothal goes bad. Talk to me about this passage after you have reviewed the hermeneutics in the original Hebrew.

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

This is a complete misstatement of the scripture. Read the passage. It merely declares that if there is contact, you are to be considered unclean for seven days. Too bad we didn’t have socialized medicine back then to give us a misdiagnosis of “clean” and infect us with a flesh-eating disease while we’re there for treatment.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

Again, you misconstrue the term “slave” as originally stated. You really cannot discuss this subject, unless you are prepared to discuss Sabbath and Jubilee. An understanding of Jubilee would go a long way toward healing our nation about now, but, whatever you do, don’t look to Scripture for advice – your friends would ostracize you for life.

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Well, you don’t know, do you? Jesus expressly clarified this edict;

“Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:23-27.

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Yes, I can.

“The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. Acts 10:9-15.

Shellfish is okay now, but check for allergies.

7. Lev. 21:17-21 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

The first thing you need to be is of the tribe of Aaron and to have been called into the priesthood, which no longer exists now that the New Covenant has occurred. Thanks for taking the scripture out of context again to prove a non-existent point.

Now, I have a few questions for you:

1. Isn’t it true that any person over the age of 18 can be named in a medical power of attorney, giving them visitation rights in a hospital and giving them rights to make life and death decisions on behalf of the other party?

2. Isn’t it true that any two persons can enter into real estate deeds in this state under “joint tenancy with full rights of survivor” that would allow real property to be immediately vested in the surviving tenant?

3. Isn’t it true that adoption laws provide for any reasonably competent person to adopt, even if single?

4. Isn’t it true that one person can leave their entire estate to another by means of a will, and that under the terms of the will, the testator can name a guardian for the children and can arrange for the transfer of assets by means of testamentary trusts.

5. Can you tell me the divorce rate among same-sex male couples in France, Holland, Norway and Sweden? How about the divorce rate among same-sex female couples?

6. Can you tell me about the incidence of marriage among heterosexual couples following the codification of same-sex marriage?

7. Finally, can you give us the resulting demography (the birth rate) in countries that have adopted same-sex marriage and are you willing to disclose whether you have an agenda to decrease the population of Washington and the US by means of same-sex marriage?

I do not bring these questions to harm you or to condemn others; but I am guided by the following:

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20.


STEPHEN PIDGEON
Attorney at Law, P.S.
(425)605-4774 telephone
(425)818-5371 facsimile

ATTENTION: receiving, reading and the relaying of this email does not establish an attorney-client relationship unless you have a previously signed and valid attorney-client agreement with Stephen Pidgeon, Attorney at Law, P.S. The contents of the foregoing email and any attachments may be CONFIDENTIAL or LEGALLY PRIVILEGED in nature and if you are not the addressee any non-authorized reading of this message or forwarding to another party may be a violation of law. If you believe you have received this email in error, please call Stephen Pidgeon, Attorney at Law, P.S. immediately at (425)605-4774.

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20 comments:

  1. In the interest of context please ask permission to also include the letter that prompted Geoff's response.

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  2. Nice spin Gary, but Barbara's email, which she blasted out to a slew or state reps was anything but respectful. I guess that's why Gary failed to include the text of her email. She starts off by informing the representatives that they will be "judged for all eternity" if they fail to obey her wishes, then quotes the bible at length. Tell me again about how her side isn't trying to force their religious beliefs on the rest of us, it's so believable.

    Here it is, assuming the censors allow a full airing of the issue at hand. As anyone can see this email is hectoring and attacking, not respectful, and in my opinion got exactly the response it deserved!

    "From: [redacted]
    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:59 PM
    To: Orwall, Rep. Tina; Parker, Rep. Kevin; Pearson, Rep. Kirk; Pedersen, Rep. Jamie; Pettigrew, Rep. Eric; Priest, Rep. Skip; Probst, Rep. Tim; Quall, Rep. Dave; Roach, Rep. Dan; Roberts, Rep. Mary Helen; Rodne, Rep. Jay; Rolfes, Rep. Christine; Ross, Rep. Charles; Santos, Rep. Sharon Tomiko; Schmick, Rep. Joe; Seaquist, Rep. Larry; Sells, Rep. Mike; Shea, Rep. Matt; Short, Rep. Shelly; Simpson, Rep. Geoff; Smith, Rep. Norma; Springer, Rep. Larry; Sullivan, Rep. Pat; Takko, Rep. Dean; Upthegrove, Rep. Dave; Van De Wege, Rep. Kevin; Wallace, Rep. Deb; Walsh, Rep. Maureen; White, Rep. Scott; Williams, Rep. Brendan; Wood, Rep. Alex
    Subject: Say NO to same sex marriage SB5688

    Washington State Legislators

    You have the authority to stop this abomination of same sex marriage. I am asking God to give you the wisdom to vote "NO" on SB5688. God definitely declared this wrong when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. If you vote for this, God will surely judge you personally. For the love of God, please don't bring down His condemnation on our State. We will all suffer for it. Honor Him and He will honor you! Disobey Him and you will be judged for all eternity.

    Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave...I will destroy it." 19:24,25 "Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley and all the inhabitants of the cities".

    Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.

    Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

    If nothing else, think of the children that they will bring into these godless marriages. Matthew 18:6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and he be drowned in the depth of the sea." V10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones."

    Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; feat the Lord and turn away from evil."

    Thank you for your time & consideration. The majority of WA State doesn't want or need this. Please don't put this burden on us, our children or our grandchildren.

    Barbara"

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  3. Thank you. As we can now see she only got back far less than she gave.

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  4. FYI the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality but being a bad neighbor.

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  5. I would have done a more tactful email but Barbara has a right to express her concerns. I'm quite sure that these legislators have received some 'x' rated (probably quite a fiew) emails and letters from frustrated constituents. I really don't worry that they are thin skinned. If they are they should probably find another profession.

    Excellent Gary. I will be forwarding Stephen's response quite a bit. Excellent dealing with the passages and the quite silly response to Barbara's accurate quoting of the Bible even if she needs a little coaching in diplomacy. But really nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. After all, it is the TRUTH that sets you free, certainly NOT political correctness.

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  6. Well said by Mr. Pidgeon. I just hope the entire letter is read. The questions at the end are to the point.

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  7. And to help Steve out with his questions I did the research for him and will forward a copy of it to Geoff in case he wants to use it in his reply:

    1. Isn’t it true that any person over the age of 18 can be named in a medical power of attorney, giving them visitation rights in a hospital and giving them rights to make life and death decisions on behalf of the other party?
    No, it merely is a document giving them permission, no agency is required to honor it and state-contracted rights can supersede it.

    2. Isn’t it true that any two persons can enter into real estate deeds in this state under “joint tenancy with full rights of survivor” that would allow real property to be immediately vested in the surviving tenant?
    Yes, but again has been and is successfully contestable by those with state-recognized rights that conflict with it and is something a state-contracted married couple need not do.

    3. Isn’t it true that adoption laws provide for any reasonably competent person to adopt, even if single?
    In some states yes.

    4. Isn’t it true that one person can leave their entire estate to another by means of a will, and that under the terms of the will, the testator can name a guardian for the children and can arrange for the transfer of assets by means of testamentary trusts.
    Which again can be successfully contested by those with state-honored rights that conflict with the will and licensing such a document is something a state-contracted married couple need not do.

    5. Can you tell me the divorce rate among same-sex male couples in France, Holland, Norway and Sweden? How about the divorce rate among same-sex female couples?
    There is no divorce history in France, Norway or Sweden since they either don't allow marriage equality to begin with or have not done so long enough for statistics to be derived. There was a study conducted by an organization with an anti-marriage equality bias, the Institute For Marriage And Public Policy, and even their data showed that the dissolution rate of mere civil unions in Sweden was consistent with those of swedish opposite gender married couples without children.

    6. Can you tell me about the incidence of marriage among heterosexual couples following the codification of same-sex marriage?
    Since marriage equality has only existed for very short time periods there is little data. Now domestic partnerships and civil unions, while not marriage equality, have existed and I have included that data and included the birth rate statistics requested in the subsequent question for easy access. All data is from Europa, the european demographic site for the entire European Union and its member states.

    Netherlands
    marriage equality:

    Marriage rate before(2001) 4.97, latest(2007): 4.49*
    birth rate before(2001) 1.71, latest(2006) 1.70
    domestic partnerships:
    Marriage rate before(1997): 5.45 latest (2007) 4.49*
    birthrate: before (1997): 1.56 latest (2006) 1.70
    *note that opposite gender couples can license domestic partnerships in the Netherlands decreasing marriage rate values.

    Belgium
    marriage rate before(2002):3.91 latest (2007): 4.28

    Spain
    marriage rate before(2005): 4.83 latest(2006): 4.61
    birth rate before 1.35 2006 1.38

    Canada: uses census system like US no relevant data yet.

    Norway marriage equality January 1, 2009 no stats yet
    civil unions:
    marriage rate before(1993) 4.62 latest 5.10
    birth rates: before (1993) 1.72 latest (2006) 1.90

    Sweden: marriage equality April 2, 2009 no stats yet
    civil unions:
    marriage rates before(1994) 3.65 latest (2007) 5.24
    birthrates: before(1994) 1.60 latest (2006) 1.85

    As can be seen, there seems to be no consistently negative effect on either marriage or birth rates by licensing same gender married couples, rather the trends in most places seems to be the opposite.

    7. Finally, can you give us the resulting demography (the birth rate) in countries that have adopted same-sex marriage [see above] and are you willing to disclose whether you have an agenda to decrease the population of Washington and the US by means of same-sex marriage?
    Why when domestic partnerships and marriage equality seem to lead to a RISE in birthrates generally? Trying to decrease the population by doing something associated with increasing the birth rate would be a pretty silly plan, agreed?

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  8. I know it is pointless to ask, but why should we base public policy on the "evidence" of scripture, from one sect of Christiantity?

    Oh wait, that implies that I am debating people that don't suppose to know the mind of God. Never mind. . .

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  9. I encourage all readers to Google "Stephen Pidgeon" and see for themselves just what sort of fringe right-wing extremist Gary is willing to hitch his wagon to.

    N.B. I haven't found a single site attacking him, I make this characterization based on his own words actions and self-promotion.

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  10. To the people who are frustrated with us, people of faith. We are attempting to live, under God's leading via His Bible, I can imagine that all this seems very strange and unreal to you! But we are dealing with 'eternity' type issues. We care that others will know the Joy that we all have with our faith. We care in the meantime that God's principles be respected and understood. We know it's being misunderstood of our convictions. We recognize your frustrations about us. Please know that we hear you, but we 'hear' God's leading also. May we somehow learn respect for each other in the meantime!

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  11. oh and just a few more that don't have marriage equality but do have civil unions open to same gender couples:

    Iceland, birth rate the same, marriage rate UP!
    Switzerland birth rate UP!, marriage rate UP!

    And those poor eastern european countries that are against marriage equality in a downward spiral of lowering birth rates and marriage rates. Maybe they should consider treating all their married couples the same and encouraging marriage for all to get those numbers to head back on up.

    Ya think?

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  12. FYI the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality but being a bad neighbor.

    And it was destroyed because there wasn't a single righteous person in it as per God's promise he would spare it if they could find even one such person. (Lot offered to daughters to the mob - he'd be in prison today)

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  13. 1:03 PM

    No, you are attempting to force the rest of us to live under laws that conform to your interpretation of the bible.

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  14. God clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination to him. Doesn't take any special interpretation.

    Once again, for us just plain Jane folks -- we believe God. But for those much more sophisticated, they have a long and drawn out explanation for how it is much more complicated than that. God didn't really say that. Even if he did, he didn't really mean it.

    Hmm, who do you sound like now? Yep, same source behind the familiar complaints. "Did God really say that?"

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  15. Anonymous said...
    FYI the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality but being a bad neighbor.

    10:55 AM, April 06, 2009
    Actually it was pride , but I see why both sides get it confused . Usually happens when you use the scriptures as a power tool instead of a love ketter .

    Mick

    . You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.

    Ezekiel 16:46-50

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  16. Sorry I meant to say the Bible is love letter not a love ketter.

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  17. "Lot offered to daughters to the mob - he'd be in prison today)"

    After Sodom was destroyed He also got pretty looped with wine and each of hison consectuive nights in order to procreate . He might be in prison yes , most likely he be in Congress. '0)

    Mick

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  18. Massachusetts Congress, Mick!! :-)

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  19. Hi Mimi !! Glad to see your still around . I was thinkig DC Congress, but the state of Massachussetts defintely deserves to be counted in that number .

    The state of Washington is not far behind . Deficits are quite large in our state . Not much leadership in how to handle it as of yet .

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